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	<id>https://offene-bibel.de/mediawiki/index.php?action=history&amp;feed=atom&amp;title=Diskussion%3AMenschensohn</id>
	<title>Diskussion:Menschensohn - Versionsgeschichte</title>
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	<updated>2026-04-24T02:05:30Z</updated>
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	<entry>
		<id>https://offene-bibel.de/mediawiki/index.php?title=Diskussion:Menschensohn&amp;diff=13776&amp;oldid=prev</id>
		<title>Ben am 16. Januar 2014 um 17:39 Uhr</title>
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		<updated>2014-01-16T17:39:35Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;table style=&quot;background-color: #fff; color: #202122;&quot; data-mw=&quot;interface&quot;&gt;
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				&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;&quot;&gt;← Nächstältere Version&lt;/td&gt;
				&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;&quot;&gt;Version vom 16. Januar 2014, 19:39 Uhr&lt;/td&gt;
				&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-lineno&quot; id=&quot;mw-diff-left-l1&quot;&gt;Zeile 1:&lt;/td&gt;
&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-lineno&quot;&gt;Zeile 1:&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;−&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;Unvollständige Abschnitte&lt;del style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;:&lt;/del&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;==&lt;/ins&gt;Unvollständige Abschnitte&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;/Notizen==&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;===Herkunft der Phrase als Titel Jesu===&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;===Herkunft der Phrase als Titel Jesu===&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;−&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;Bultmann erkannte nur die Abschnitte als historisch an, in denen Jesus sich von dem eschatologischen Menschensohn und dessen Rolle im zukünftigen Gericht abgrenzt. Vielhauer hielt den Titel bei Jesus dagegen für die früheste Christologie, die nach Ostern entstand. &lt;del style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt; &lt;/del&gt;Inzwischen ist man mit Urteilen über die Historizität des Titels offenbar vorsichtiger geworden.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Collins: „The conclusion that Jesus did not speak such sayings is based on a theological tendency to value &quot;eschatology&quot; and to devalue &quot;apocalypticism.&quot;“ (ebd. 2007, 187) &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;Bultmann erkannte nur die Abschnitte als historisch an, in denen Jesus sich von dem eschatologischen Menschensohn und dessen Rolle im zukünftigen Gericht abgrenzt. Vielhauer hielt den Titel bei Jesus dagegen für die früheste Christologie, die nach Ostern entstand. Inzwischen ist man mit Urteilen über die Historizität des Titels offenbar vorsichtiger geworden.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Collins: „The conclusion that Jesus did not speak such sayings is based on a theological tendency to value &quot;eschatology&quot; and to devalue &quot;apocalypticism.&quot;“ (ebd. 2007, 187) &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;(Collins 2007, 187)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;(Collins 2007, 187)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;: „Following Bultmann, the Son of man sayings have often been grouped into three categories: (a) present Son of man sayings, focusing on the earthly ministry; (b) passion Son of man sayings, focusing on rejection, suffering and death; and (c) Parousia or future Son of man sayings, focusing on the future coming in power and glory.“&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;(Guelich 1989, 89)&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-lineno&quot; id=&quot;mw-diff-left-l9&quot;&gt;Zeile 9:&lt;/td&gt;
&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-lineno&quot;&gt;Zeile 12:&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;Gewöhnlicher Gebrauch („Mensch“):&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;Gewöhnlicher Gebrauch („Mensch“):&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;* &amp;#039;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;LXX&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;: Gen 11,5; Num 23,19; 1Sam 26,19; 2Sam 7,14; 1Kö 8,39; 2Chr 6,30; 1 Esdras 4,37; Jdt 8,12.16; Ps 4,3; 8,5; 10,4; 11,2.9; 13,2; ...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;* &amp;#039;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;LXX&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;: Gen 11,5; Num 23,19; 1Sam 26,19; 2Sam 7,14; 1Kö 8,39; 2Chr 6,30; 1 Esdras 4,37; Jdt 8,12.16; Ps 4,3; 8,5; 10,4; 11,2.9; 13,2; ...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;===Was die Literatur sagt===&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;France 2002, 127:&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;: „It would be out of place in this commentary to attempt to survey the immense and increasingly complex scholarly debate over this term. I shall assume a view which is well represented among recent scholarship (though no point is uncontroversial): (1) that Jesus used this term to refer to himself, and that it was recognised and reproduced by the evangelists as his distinctive self-designation; (2) that it derives at least in part from Dn. 7:13–14, and that that text is often relevant to exegesis of passages in the gospels which use the term, even though it is used much more widely than merely in conscious allusion to that passage; (3) that the term ‘the Son of Man’ as such was not in current use in Judaism as a messianic title, even though the messianic significance of Dn. 7 was recognised and developed in later Jewish literature; and (4) that therefore the distinctive use of ‘the Son of Man’ by Jesus derives from his own choice of a term with clear messianic overtones but without a ready-made nationalistic content such as was carried by ‘Messiah’ or ‘Son of David’.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;In describing ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου as a title not currently in use I am, of course, assuming that the Similitudes of Enoch, the only other Jewish writing of the period to develop a distinctively ‘titular’ use of the same phrase, was either not yet in existence at the time of Jesus’ ministry (the debate on its date of origin, occasioned by lack of evidence for this section of the Book of Enoch among the Qumran texts, continues unresolved), or was not widely known in the circles in which he moved, and that the title was independently developed from Dn. 7:13–14 by Jesus and by the author of the Similitudes.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;“&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;Noch mit einzuarbeiten: Zeller, Dieter (2011): [http://www.bibelwissenschaft.de/stichwort/51995/ Menschensohn], Wibilex.&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;/table&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Ben</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://offene-bibel.de/mediawiki/index.php?title=Diskussion:Menschensohn&amp;diff=13775&amp;oldid=prev</id>
		<title>Ben: Die Seite wurde neu angelegt: „Unvollständige Abschnitte:  ===Herkunft der Phrase als Titel Jesu=== Bultmann erkannte nur die Abschnitte als historisch an, in denen Jesus sich von dem eschatol…“</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://offene-bibel.de/mediawiki/index.php?title=Diskussion:Menschensohn&amp;diff=13775&amp;oldid=prev"/>
		<updated>2014-01-16T17:04:25Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Die Seite wurde neu angelegt: „Unvollständige Abschnitte:  ===Herkunft der Phrase als Titel Jesu=== Bultmann erkannte nur die Abschnitte als historisch an, in denen Jesus sich von dem eschatol…“&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;Neue Seite&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div&gt;Unvollständige Abschnitte:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Herkunft der Phrase als Titel Jesu===&lt;br /&gt;
Bultmann erkannte nur die Abschnitte als historisch an, in denen Jesus sich von dem eschatologischen Menschensohn und dessen Rolle im zukünftigen Gericht abgrenzt. Vielhauer hielt den Titel bei Jesus dagegen für die früheste Christologie, die nach Ostern entstand.  Inzwischen ist man mit Urteilen über die Historizität des Titels offenbar vorsichtiger geworden.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Collins: „The conclusion that Jesus did not speak such sayings is based on a theological tendency to value &amp;quot;eschatology&amp;quot; and to devalue &amp;quot;apocalypticism.&amp;quot;“ (ebd. 2007, 187) &amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
(Collins 2007, 187)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Versindex===&lt;br /&gt;
Gewöhnlicher Gebrauch („Mensch“):&lt;br /&gt;
* &amp;#039;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;LXX&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;: Gen 11,5; Num 23,19; 1Sam 26,19; 2Sam 7,14; 1Kö 8,39; 2Chr 6,30; 1 Esdras 4,37; Jdt 8,12.16; Ps 4,3; 8,5; 10,4; 11,2.9; 13,2; ...&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Ben</name></author>
	</entry>
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